Posts by Cold Steel

Pale.Emperor » She asked me if i was going to ever "return to Jehovah". I said no, never. Then she visited Paul (and elder in the congregation). She asked Paul what she should do. She doesn't want to shun me and thinks its not right. Paul told her "dont worry about it". He said that announcement was wrong and doesn't expect anyone to follow it. And it'll probably be forgotten."

Am I reading this right? If I had left, I don't think I'd use the term "return to Jehovah." I might have said, "You have any intention of going back?" Also, what's "Katie" doing by then going to an elder in the congregation and asking what she should do? Sounds like she was seeking counsel. It may be just me, but are you sure she's all the way out?

Shunning is, to me, the single greatest evil this religion engages in -- worse even than the insipid blood doctrine. By telling active dubs that their eternal welfare depends on them doing what they're told, they're exercising frightening dominion over people.

So what would have happened if the elder had said, "Absolutely not! You're not to have anything to do with Pale.Emperor feller!"

I just find it curious.

33

Can the dead hear?

by AmyWatson916 in

the "what does the bible really teach?

" book says we cannot speak to the dead (page 64) and that the dead do not hear (page 58) but on page 68 the book has jesus talking to a dead man and the dead man apparently hearing and responding.

the same thing happens on page 69 when peter talks to a dead woman and the dead woman apparently hears and responds.

Cold Steel

I like Cicero's observation better: “A mind without instruction can no more bear fruit than can a field, however fertile, without cultivation.”

We have a body of information in near death experiences that bears serious examination. I say that because of the consistency of many of the accounts. I'm not saying we should accept that body as a whole. Like UFO sightings (which also bears further investigation) one has to go on a case-by-case basis. If someone was in a hospital and it was a matter of record that they actually had a death experience (some revived in hospital morgues); and if that person's account is remarkably like others, such as a multitude of thick vegetation and colors, large spacious buildings, meeting and having intelligent conversations with loved ones who had passed, etc., and if they had solid reputations with those in their communities, they bear further examination. If they were in their studies, spoke in tongues at their local Pentecostal churches, see angels with large white wings and are willing to send you their stories for a twenty-dollar "gift offering," that's in another category. And if they sound like Jonathan Winters as the farmer who saw a flying saucer, they go in still another pile.

There are good, honorable people who have had, to me, fully credible stories. They are not ridiculous, absurd or easy to dismiss any more than UFO stories.

33

Can the dead hear?

by AmyWatson916 in

the "what does the bible really teach?

" book says we cannot speak to the dead (page 64) and that the dead do not hear (page 58) but on page 68 the book has jesus talking to a dead man and the dead man apparently hearing and responding.

the same thing happens on page 69 when peter talks to a dead woman and the dead woman apparently hears and responds.

Cold Steel

Cofty » The plural of anecdote is not data.

That's true, and there are a number of cases that I find disturbingly suspicious, just as there are in UFO sightings and reports of hauntings. The father who wrote a book about his son Colton's near death experience (Heaven Is For Real, by Todd Burpo) was a best-selling book made into a movie. From the beginning, the account seemed scripted. It began as a book, was adapted into a children's version and then was offered as a study guide with notes and then as an Audible Book before being released as a movie. I'd bought it when it first appeared because Todd was a minister and I wanted to see how the story played out. After only about twenty minutes I realized it was fabricated, and as the supplemental material came out (not to mention the movie), the account itself was far too different from the other, more believable and consistent, accounts I had read.

Each case by itself is anecdotal, but as a body they begin to look a lot more like data in their consistency. The same is true about the UFO stories. They cannot be universally accepted, but neither should they be universally dismissed. There are just too many of them and many of them have been witnessed. To be skeptical is one thing; to dismiss them all as anecdotes is quite another.

16

10 Questions to annoy Jehovah's Witnesses

by TerryWalstrom in

we are sick with sin and we’re trying to get well, right?

2. when you hire a coach to get you to the playoffs and win the big game, yet you lose...lose...lose.... do you fire him, or, do you keep him on?

well, then, how do you explain fred franz being made president after the 1975 fiasco?.

Cold Steel

1. Why wouldn’t Christians think of their congregation as a kind of hospital? We are sick with sin and we’re trying to get well, right? What hospital kicks the sick ones out the door and keeps the healthy ones?

We're not a hospital, brother. We are an advanced course working for a godly degree. You can get help from the assistants, but if you can't hack the course, you fail.

2. When you hire a coach to get you to the playoffs and win the big game, yet you lose...lose...lose.... do you FIRE him, or, do you keep him on? Well, then, how do you explain Fred Franz being made PRESIDENT after the 1975 fiasco?

You're talking about Jehovah's coach here. Quite often Jehovah teaches his earthly servants humility as he did Jonah. The year 1975 was deduced mathematically. The Governing Body doesn't claim to be inspired or infallible. If people leaned on mathematics too much and didn't adequately plan for the future, well, they did it to themselves!

3. Knowledge about life, medicine, science, astronomy, mathematics, physics, chemistry & history is greater and more abundant today than ever before. If you ignore higher education now--who is going to be the most clueless jackass in the room in the years to come?

That's not going to be a problem. You see, we're even closer to Armageddon now than we were in 1975. Those who learn worldly things will find that they worshiped the god of science rather than Jehovah. You should learn from that and love Jehovah...or he will wipe you out of existence like that [snap!]. Remember, he loves you! But don't cross him!

4. In a dark room, you light a candle. If it is still too dark to see clearly—do you light a new candle and blow out the old one? Then, try again. Explain this New Light crap once more.

New candles make new light, and as Jehovah brings us new candles, we see more! We learn more because we perceive more. But remember, brother, screw around with Jehovah's candles and you're going to get burned!

5. Humility consists of open willingness to admit mistakes and explain your failures with a promise NEVER to do it again. Arrogance, on the other hand, says this:
"At times explanations given by Jehovah’s visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case."

We are humble, brother, which is why we tell you lovingly: you're beginng to annoy us. What we're saying is, at times it seems like the new light is changing what we see. Actually, what we're seeing doesn't change; it's the way we see them that changes. In other words, we're still right, even when it appears we were wrong.

6. A Faithful Servant does not tell guests what they should eat. A Wise Servant would not dare cry, “Dinner is being served” while the guests just sit and wait and wait--unless he needed to have his crazy ass fired!

We don't tell you what to eat. Our job is to feed you what you yourself want to eat. If you want to serve, we sell you materials to give to others. But if you want to question our authority, you're totally free to say so without any fear of reprisal. By the way, what is your name, brother and what congregation do you attend?

Name:________________________ KH: _________________________

7. Peter denied Christ 3 separate times out of self-regard in the face of danger. Afterward, Jesus gave him the keys to the Kingdom. Tell me again how any disfellowshipped person is WORSE?

Peter was in the Governing Body. You aren't. Get the picture? Let me put it like this: how many GB members have been DF'ed in the past hundred years? Okay, how many of you peons have been DF'ed? Starting to see how things are?? (Please don't ask us how we got the keys of the kingdom. It was all invisible and inaudible.)

8. Willingness to die for a belief seems to be the delight of terrorists and every other radical fanatic. Why do Christians find it heroic too?

Heroic, yes. To die for one's beliefs is one thing. When was the last time a GB member died? Now, when was the last time regular members died? Strange are the ways of Jehovah!

9. Okay, you're telling me what "this generation" REALLY MEANS now.....so....um...what the hell was all that other crap YOU SAID IT MEANT?

It's all a matter of record. What you thought we meant was not what we actually meant at all! In other words you can take that BIG candle and shove it up....[Expletive Deleted]

10. My mother suffered the pangs of birth so I could have a life. She fed me, changed my diapers, held me, dried my tears, taught me right from wrong and was always there for me. What kind of low-life ingrate will it make me IF I turn my back on her now because she won't quit smoking….and you just DISFELLOWSHIPPED HER!!

Well...we can see who loves Jehovah now, can't we! By ignoring her, you'll be helping her. See, what other degenerate, apostate Christian religion would teach you to "dis" your mom for the Kingdom's glory? Only us...and, well, maybe the Westboro Baptists!

We'll see who's smoking in Armageddon.

And it won't be us, buddy.

33

Can the dead hear?

by AmyWatson916 in

the "what does the bible really teach?

" book says we cannot speak to the dead (page 64) and that the dead do not hear (page 58) but on page 68 the book has jesus talking to a dead man and the dead man apparently hearing and responding.

the same thing happens on page 69 when peter talks to a dead woman and the dead woman apparently hears and responds.

Cold Steel

Cofty » Which is code for make-believe.

There's actually evidence (not proof) that an afterlife exists, and there are quite a few atheists and agnostics that are now believers. You can talk to many Emergency Room staffers in almost any part of the world and there will be stories of those who died and had "after death" experiences.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PwyYUFzkf2w

The thing about dream (or hallucinogenic) states is that they tend to be vague; they make no sense. You may see colors, or sensations of color, but to clearly see people, have intelligent conversations and actually convey knowledge -- are you going to reject one hundred percent of these experiences just because of your belief system?

33

Can the dead hear?

by AmyWatson916 in

the "what does the bible really teach?

" book says we cannot speak to the dead (page 64) and that the dead do not hear (page 58) but on page 68 the book has jesus talking to a dead man and the dead man apparently hearing and responding.

the same thing happens on page 69 when peter talks to a dead woman and the dead woman apparently hears and responds.

Cold Steel

Whether the dead can hear is more a matter of faith. According to the scriptures and some creeds, yes. The so-called Apostles Creed states that after Jesus died, "he descended into Hell." Actually, Jesus told the malefactor on the cross, "thou shalt be with me in Paradise." But what is Paradise? According to Origen, one of the greatest scholars of Christianity, it is not Heaven, but the place of departed spirits.

"After death," he said, "I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of learning or school of the spirits, in which everything they did on Earth would be made clear to them."

Peter writes:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Peter 3:18-21 KJV)

A few verses later he continues:

"Wherein [the ungodly] think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:4-6 KJV)

How the JWs miss this in their soul sleeping beliefs is beyond me. If the dead "sleep" at death, how can they be preached to? Peter also states that this preaching occurred between the time Jesus died and the time of his resurrection, and that the preaching was to "the dead." Somehow this ended up in the creed as "Hell."

This also correlates to many life after life stories that tend to be remarkably consistent from different times and cultures, and the life reviews they undergo.

25

How did we get from singular ha-Elohim (God) to plural ha-Elohim (judges)?

by I_love_Jeff in

read exodus 22:6-8

jps tanakh : 6 when a man gives money or goods to another for safekeeping, and they are stolen from the man’s house if the thief is caught, he shall pay double; 7 if the thief is not caught, the owner of the house shall come near (נקרב) to god (האלהים) that he has not laid hands on the other’s property.

8 in all charges of misappropriation pertaining to an ox, an ***, a sheep, a garment, or any other loss, whereof one party alleges, “this is it” the case of both parties shall come before god (האלהים): he whom god (אלהים ) declares guilty (ַיְר ִשי ֻףן) shall pay double to the other.

Cold Steel

David_Jay » I have been involved in a handful of debates here, but I don't wish to continue this practice. Jews aren't interested in changing others into Jews. I appreciate the varied views of others, and I can best learn from others (and I wish to) outside of a forum like this. I just don't subscribe to the teaching that any one group has been assigned all of "the truth."

Although you're correct that Jews have no interest in changing other people into Jews or proselytizing in any way, some Christians do, such as many forms of evangelicals, the latter-day saints. It's seen all the way through the New Testament. Other Christians have no interest in proselytizing, such as the Eastern Orthodox. But it's how each views their own beliefs as reflected in their biblical or other scriptures.

You've expressed your own aversion to changing the religious views of others, but there's a line to be drawn between proselytizing and discussing. I not only can accept your beliefs as a Jew, I can respect your desire not to be proselytized. At the same time not all Jews have the same eschatological beliefs. They also differ widely in historical outlooks and scriptural exegeses. (Some believe prophecy as being of God; others even doubt that God exists.)

Finally, discussion should not be confused with debating. This board, after all, like most boards, are for discussion. You've added a great deal to this forum, but please don't ever think I disrespect your beliefs or outlooks. Again, quite the contrary.

25

How did we get from singular ha-Elohim (God) to plural ha-Elohim (judges)?

by I_love_Jeff in

read exodus 22:6-8

jps tanakh : 6 when a man gives money or goods to another for safekeeping, and they are stolen from the man’s house if the thief is caught, he shall pay double; 7 if the thief is not caught, the owner of the house shall come near (נקרב) to god (האלהים) that he has not laid hands on the other’s property.

8 in all charges of misappropriation pertaining to an ox, an ***, a sheep, a garment, or any other loss, whereof one party alleges, “this is it” the case of both parties shall come before god (האלהים): he whom god (אלהים ) declares guilty (ַיְר ִשי ֻףן) shall pay double to the other.

Cold Steel

As used in Genesis, Elohim was clearly plural. "Let US make MAN in OUR image, after OUR likeness" and "man has become as ONE of US." This is erroneously thought to be Satan's first lie. Jesus prayed to the Father concerning the Twelve, "that THEY may be ONE, even as WE are ONE." If twelve can be ONE, why not three?

Here's a lecture by Methodist scholar Margaret Barker:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=nOnHDQgIoCU

In Christianity, the doctrine of theosis was a controversial issue. John wrote that what lay beyond our existence here was a mystery, "but when we see Him, we shall be like Him." (1 John 3:2)

35

Anyone Heard Any Good DEMON Stories Lately?

by Cold Steel in

i saw this recent account on youtube recently and wondered if anyone had any good spook stories?

haunted books?

ouija boards?

Cold Steel

It's not that I don't believe in hauntings and the supernatural, but it's another thing to be superstitious. I had a good friend who grew up in Atchison, Kansas, on L Street. It was haunted from his earliest days and He had stories that could curl your toes. He had a very small TV room where visitors and family often saw an elderly man sitting. If they did a double take, the sofa would be empty.

They had a French foreign exchange student staying with them once. On his first day, when my friend's mom rang the differ bell, the student showed up and, counting the set places around the table, looked perplexed. When my friend asked if anything was wrong, the fellow asked if the man in the TV room would be joining them. Everyone speed what they were doing and they explained about "George" (which was what they called him). The student turned and rushed back to the TV room and returned ashen.

The following week, he brought home an Ouija board and another friend (also French). They set it up in the basement and it wouldn't work properly. The plancette (finger device) flew all over the board. Asking if the spirit was angry, it went to YES, then M and back and forth.

Two people there had names beginning with "M" -- Matthew and Mark (my friend). They asked if it was Matthew and it went NO, then "M" and repeated it. They then asked if it was mad at Mark and it shot to YES, M, YES, M and they stopped.

Mark said he changed places with the recorder and sat at the side table. They began again and Mark told me he suddenly felt light headed. The paper he was looking at blurred and he felt like he was falling backwards. The next thing he knew he was on the floor and everyone was around him looking terrified. Matt had his right hand in a fist and was yelling at him to stay down! He tried to get up, but was too dizzy and his face hurt. And everyone began telling him to stay down.

He said he had no recollection of it, but they told him he had suddenly leapt from the desk and had attacked them, screaming obscenities. Matt hit him but he had jumped up again, swinging at the closest of them and had been knocked down again. It was the third time that he began to come to.

He never used an Ouija board again.

He said the spirit in the TV room had never spoken to them, nor did he seem violent in any way. One time, he recounted, his mother was carrying laundry downstairs. She tripped and someone with "strong hands" caught her. Supposing it was her husband, she turned to thank him and no one was there.

Mark said they would hear loud noises that sounded like a full chest had fallen over and that things had fallen out of it. But when they searched, everything was in place. They would see what looked like car headlights on the wall late at night, but when they looked outside no car would be there. Even more oddly, when they put their hands up to see where the light was coming from, they would cast no shadow.

One night, Mark felt creepy for no particular reason and decided to go to work early (he delivered pizzas). Hours later he returned home, where his dad told him he'd come home a short time later to find Mark's younger brother, terrified, and sitting on the sofa with his dad's loaded revolver in his hands. He normally came home and went to bed, but he heard footsteps upstairs that particular night and then heard the crashing sound and things hitting the floor. So he got his dad's pistol and decided to wait. His dad checked all the upstairs rooms but could find nothing amiss.

I met Mark's family and they seemed perfectly well balanced. They had many stories, but over a long period of time. Every night wasn't Halloween, but for the most part they just got used to it. At first Mark's dad was angry about Mark's brother getting the gun, but he understood why he got it.

Even though a gun isn't going to hurt a spirit, I still think I'd feel better with one!